Question:
Is there any proof that we need B12?
anonymous
2007-09-06 19:57:22 UTC
Seems like meat eaters are convinced we need B12. You ever notice how they can't prove it though. I challenge anyone to show me a copy of a lab test proving we need B12.
23 answers:
anonymous
2007-09-07 09:53:13 UTC
YOU are a scumy troll and a failure at life, this shows badly in your words, I pity you for the sad life you and yourself must lead.



Chrissy F, I wish all the best one person can to you.
roeman
2007-09-07 03:17:11 UTC
Well vitamin b12 I have been very light headed and had a lot of tests done and everything i have read and doctors lead to b12 deficiency because the med I'm on for diabetes restricts the absorption of vitamin b12 so I started taking a b12 supplement and it seams like it is helping me I have no med report yet but it does not hurt to take the vitamin or vitamins anyway it is a long term effect that shows up later so you are a vegetarian or vegan that all well and good adding some vitamins to your diet can not hurt just help you feel better isn't that's why you are a vegetarian or vegan? anyway? good luck anyway!!
Vegan Kitty
2007-09-07 17:03:17 UTC
If you're vegetarian you definitely don't need to take any. If you're vegan it's hard to tell. Some people say we do, other say they never took any and they are fine. I ask a vegan doctor once, and he took some just in case. He told me there was no danger of taking too much, so might as well take some just in case.



You can find B12 in some things like Marmite, or tinned spaghetti. If you choose to take some as a supplement, then be careful what make you get. In France I know you can get either Delagrange or Gerda, which are synthetic B12. Don't know if you can get them in the UK though. I just take some from time to time when I think of it ;-)



Take care





Go vegan!
Dory
2007-09-07 13:25:56 UTC
Have my life for a few weeks then you will have all the proof you need.



I have Pernicious Anaemia, I have to take B12 injections every 10 weeks for the rest of my life. The symptoms I have are horrid and would love to be with out this condition. I have to go for regular blood tests and the B12 injections are adjusted accordingly. At the beginning of the year I was on daily injections for 3 months. B12 in essential in every ones diet. Unfortunately my body is missing Intrinsic Factor so I can't absorb it from food hence the injections. I also have to live with the fact that I could have passed this on to my 4 children, who are also having regular blood tests.



Edit: Thank you Res. If taking B12 will save a person from getting Pernicious Anaemia they should take it. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
anonymous
2007-09-07 03:15:58 UTC
We do need B12 or we will get pernicious anemia. The misconception is that B12 is proof of humans being natural meat eaters. Before we started washing our fruits and vegetables, we could get plenty of B12 from the dirt that was stuck to these foods. B12 is produced by bacteria in the ground; herbivores obtain it by eating plants from the ground. But if you don't like to eat dirty food (and who does...we haven't the immunity to do so anymore) it is a very easy thing to supplement. A cup of silk and a bowl of fortified cereal will do the trick. Nutritional yeast is good too. They also make B12 drops you just place under your tongue.
Michael H
2007-09-07 11:01:27 UTC
Right, now i've got my 2 points i need to go and hack the system to make sure i get 8 more.



We need B12, it just doesn't have to come from meat.



If you really need proof either way, if it really bothers you that much, why don't you look for the hundreds of lab reports on the internet. Or read what the Vegetarian Society or the International Vegetarian Union have to say about it
rome
2007-09-09 03:58:51 UTC
B12 is good for your mind, the fact that you are asking this question is proof that people need it and you are not getting enough
Celtic Tejas
2007-09-07 05:24:27 UTC
There is B-12 in veggie sources, PLUS I have read it is very doubtful that it is a needed supplement for even the strictest vegan.

I started taking is at a Energy Booster (in Liquid Form or Sublingual) as I have problems with my Adrenals.

http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html



Slainté (to your health)
anonymous
2007-09-07 03:54:02 UTC
Everyone needs b12 not just vegetarians.
A Canadian
2007-09-07 03:07:33 UTC
Give me a break...look up Pernicious anemia, megaloblastic anemia, B12 deficiency. Eventually, B12 deficiency will kill you but you actually get to go mad before that happens...it's called megaloblastic madness...google it.



Also, it's why some animals (for example rabbits) eat their own droppings. The must be copraphagic as they cannot produce their own B12 as they don't eat meat. They must rely on their gut flora to produce it for them.
picklechick
2007-09-08 20:53:42 UTC
I used to suffer quite bad mood swings due to PMT,(PMS if your'e American)and I read somewhere that using B12 could aid my symptoms.I tried it and it did.
anonymous
2007-09-07 03:58:26 UTC
Yeah, we need it. However, it's a misconception that it only comes from animal-based products. B12 is a vitamin formed by bacteria. It used to be found naturally in top soil but with modern farming methods with pesticides and such and topsoil erosion, it is no longer present in soil. B12 can actually be stored in the body for years, which is why it takes so long for a deficiency to occur. Furthermore, very little is needed. We’re talking micrograms. A vegan diet may not be a reliable source of B12, but a flesh-eating diet isn’t necessarily, either. Meat has not been found to be a reliable source of B-12, at least according to extensive studies done by the USDA. The B-12 is too tightly bound within the protein to be adequately absorbed by our intestinal tracts. Even if meat were a good source, it is no longer a natural source of B-12. Unfortunately because of modern feeding practices of cattle, they no longer receive adequate B-12 in their diet and so they have to receive B-12 supplements (in other words, you are getting a supplement of B-12 second hand by eating meat). Dairy contains B12, but, unfortunately, dairy is the single most polluted food in our diets. It often has levels of dioxin and other petrochemicals that are far in excess of limits set by the EPA. It is also a food that promotes anemia by not only have low levels of iron, but also has elements which prevent proper absorption of iron. It is a very low nutrient dense food, and is very high in preformed Vitamin A which is not a healthful nutrient according to studies. On top of that, high consumption of dairy leads to excessive levels of Insulin-like Growth Hormone 1 in humans, and high levels of this hormone have been linked with various cancers, including but not limited to breast, prostate and colon cancers. I could go on, but I guess you get the idea here. Again, too, the B-12 from the cow's is not native to their diets any more, so they are getting it supplemented in. Yet, despite the high levels of consumption of foods high in B-12 in this country, it has been estimated by Harvard School of Public Health that B-12 is the most common nutrient deficiency in the US. So, it really comes down to the fact that we are not getting sufficient B-12 from any of our diets, and even if we could, the food sources that would give us sufficient B-12 our too polluted and unhealthful to eat in the required quantities to be considered ideal. In other words, in today's industrialized world where we wash fruits and veggies excessively (we used to get B-12 from the soil remnants on our produce), we are really best off taking a supplement for B-12. Seaweed and nutritional yeast both have some B12. Fermented items have some. Some cereals are fortified with it along with some vegan soymilks. For a direct source of vitamin B12 along with other B vitamins and a slew of other nutrients, I highly suggest Kombucha.
traceilicious
2007-09-07 03:25:05 UTC
It is funny that Ashley Troll and now this ugly Heather troll asked the same ? just hours apart. Guess what deary I reported your troll butt on the last question. Go away Ashley you are not cute and funny anymore. We all think you are a middle school age, who has no other social life, but sit his fat butt down in front of the computer and eat a cheeseburger while angering people around the world. The funny part about it is that you keep taking girl names...hmm maybe I am onto something? What do you think fellow V& V members?



edit ^--^ I like your comments a lot you are very well informed and obviously educated. I just wanted you to know that!
soxrcat
2007-09-07 04:55:44 UTC
If you don't get any B12, you will become severely anemic.
ellen d
2007-09-08 10:27:21 UTC
Woo Hoo! 2 points for me, and -5 for you. Keep 'em coming! Did you get enough proof from all these answers yet? Probably not because you are so narrow minded that you can't even accept that you might be wrong.
Hehe
2007-09-08 13:24:55 UTC
Yes we do need it but you can easily get enough of it by eating a bowl of cereal each day.
soren
2007-09-07 03:09:06 UTC
perhaps asking your doctor and getting a lab test might help you find your answer.



B12 is good for mental health for starters.
AnnieG
2007-09-10 18:22:30 UTC
Of course we need it silly, unless you want to become anaemic.
traceilicious
2007-09-07 03:10:26 UTC
Rather than us proving it to you ... .why don't you prove it to yourself. Make sure you stay away from any food that has B12. See how you are doing in about 6-12 months. Report back and tell us whether or not we need B12.
ladybugs380
2007-09-10 03:35:47 UTC
just drink some rice milk and there you have your b-12.... Just face it we need it it is ok just drink your rice milk or soy milk and there you go you don't have to worry about it
anonymous
2007-09-09 14:23:44 UTC
Meh, idk, you can get it from marmite, just eat that, it's not meat, it's also in some cereals, isn't it? :/
anonymous
2007-09-10 03:40:53 UTC
idiot
kate m
2007-09-07 07:42:47 UTC
B12 is esential for healthy nerve function even the vegan society website state this and I assume they are not meat eaters. The happy solution though Marmite its yeast extract completely vegan and a 4g serving contains 60% of your rda of B12. Please note although the below text states B12 is not found in vegetables it is found in yeast.



Anaemia due to lack of vitamin B12

Anaemia is a condition in which the blood cannot carry enough oxygen to meet the body’s needs. This may be because there are less red blood cells than normal, or because there is not enough haemoglobin in each cell.



Vitamin B12 is needed to make red blood cells. Vitamin B12 is also essential for the nerves and brain.



Other nutrients that are needed to make red blood cells include iron and folate (folic acid). A lack of these in the diet can also cause anaemia. For more information please see the separate BUPA factsheets on Iron-deficiency anaemia and Folate-deficiency anaemia.



Causes of vitamin B12 deficiency

Pernicious anaemia

In most cases, vitamin B12 deficiency happens because the stomach cannot produce enough of a substance called intrinsic factor (IF), which is needed for vitamin B12 to be absorbed. This is called pernicious anaemia.



Pernicious anaemia is an autoimmune condition. Normally cells called antibodies, produced by the body’s immune system, attack foreign substances such as viruses and bacteria. With autoimmune conditions, the immune system mistakes the person’s own tissue as foreign and attacks it.



With pernicious anaemia, antibodies damage the cells in the stomach that produce intrinsic factor.



The cause of pernicious anaemia is not known. It usually develops in people over the age of 50, and tends to run in families. If left untreated, pernicious anaemia can become life-threatening.



Other causes of B12 deficiency

Poor absorption of vitamin B12 can be caused by parasites or certain bacteria that interfere with absorption in the small intestine. Crohn's disease (a condition of the small bowel) can also interfere with vitamin B12 absorption.

Vitamin B12 deficiency can be associated with a poorly functioning pancreas; liver damage, caused by excess alcohol intake; gastrectomy (surgical removal of part or all of the stomach); and taking some medications for stomach ulcers on a long-term basis.

Dietary-related vitamin B12 deficiency is rare, but strict vegans may be at risk because their diet excludes the foods that provide this vitamin. Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin that is not found in vegetables.



Vitamin B12



Nobel Laureate We dedicate this 'Molecule of the Month to the Memory of Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin, Chancellor of the University of Bristol 1971-1988

Bristol Chancellor



Cobalt - An Essential Element for Life

Cobalt appears centrally in the periodic table, and with its neighbours, iron, manganese, nickel and copper, has a central rôle in a number of biochemical metalloenzyme reactions.

The disease, pernicious anæmia, was first described in 1821, and was invariably fatal. In 1926 Minot and Murphy, following Whipple's observation that anæmic dogs could be cured by feeding them raw liver, discovered that pernicious anæmia could also be treated by supplementing the human diet with liver. An intensive search for the "liver factor" was started. However cobalt's vital status was not proved until after World War II, in 1948, when the 'anti-pernicious anæmia factor', which became called Vitamin B12, was finally purified and isolated as crystals by Folkers and his co-workers at Merck Laboratories, and by Smith and Parker at Glaxo Laboratories. Small red crystals of Vitamin B12 were then grown by Lester Smith and given to Dorothy Hodgkin for crystal structure analysis. All that was known at this stage was that the approximate empirical formula was C61-64H84-90N14O13-14PCo.



A crystal structure on a molecule of this size and complexity had never been attempted before, it was a huge and complex task, since crystal structure determinations were not the routine tasks that they are today, and the techniques were still being developed, both the X-ray and the computer equipment were tedious and difficult to use. Thus the x-ray crystal structure which emerged from this study between 1950 the early 1960s was the first determination of a chemical formula by X-ray diffraction, and the first determination of the structure of a metalloenzyme. It was a triumph for Dorothy Hodgkin and her Oxford x-ray crystallography group, inspiring many young crystallographers, and pointing them to biochemistry as an exciting new subject for their endevours. The structure work also caused Woodward (at Harvard) and Eschenmoser (at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) to start synthetic work on Vitamin B12. The synthesis took 11 more years, and involved more than 90 separate reactions performed by over 100 co-workers. The sterochemical puzzles involved in the synthesis led to the Woodward-Hoffman rules. This all adds up to three Nobel prizes in chemistry and one in medicine!





Whipple(California), Minot and Murphy (Massachusetts) : (Physiology and Medicine) : the discovery of "anti-pernicious anæmia factor", now called Vitamin B12

Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin (Oxford) : (Chemistry) : determinations by X-ray techniques of the structures of important biochemical substances.

R.B.Woodward (Harvard) : (Chemistry) : outstanding achievements in the art of organic synthesis

K.Fukui (Kyoto) and R.Hoffman (Cornell) : (Chemistry) : quantum mechanical studies of chemical reactivity



Vitamin B12 and Diet

We only need minute traces of Vitamin B12 in our diet, as little as 1µ gram per day, and provided we absorb this in our diet, all is well. If the stomach does not secrete hydrochloric acid properly, and the intestine thus not absorb the vitamin, then pernicious anæmia results. In cattle, sheep and other ruminants, microorganisms present in their rumen, can synthesise the vitamin, which is then used particularly for the methylmalonic acid to succinic acid isomerisation step, one of the isomerization steps catalysed by Vitamin B12. Humans do not have such microorganisms in their digestive system, so must absorb the vitamin from food.

Methanogens are a primitive type of bacteria, archeobacteria, capable of using methane at the end of their electron acceptor chain, they involve a nickel corrinoid (F430) and Vitamin B12 in the catalysis of the reaction :





4H2 + CO2 = CH4 + 2H2O



A cow produces about 40 litres of methane per day, and methane is a potent atmospheric 'greenhouse' gas!

Structural Details

Vitamin B12 Vitamin B12 is the only known biomolecule with a stable carbon-metal bond - it is an organometallic compound. The core of the molecule is a corrin ring with various attached sidegroups. The ring consists of 4 pyrrole subunits, joined on opposite sides by a C-CH3 methylene link, on one side by a C-H methylene link, and with the two of the pyrroles joined directly. It is thus like a porphyrin, but with one of the bridging methylene groups removed. The nitrogen of each pyrolle is coordinated to the central cobalt atom. The sixth ligand below the ring is a nitrogen of a 5,6-dimethylbenzimidazole. The other nitrogen is linked to a five-carbon sugar, which in turn connects to a phosphate group, and thence back onto the corrin ring via one of the seven amide groups attached to the periphery of the corrin ring. The base ligand thus forms a 'strap' back onto the corrin ring.



An important aspect of the corrin ring, when compared to the porphyrin, is the relative flexibility of the corrin system, the corrin ring is also less flat when viewed from the side than is a porphyrin ring. This adds up to some considerable differences between the chemistry of a cobalt porphyrin and a cobalt corrin.



In addition, the corrin only has a conjugated chain around part of the ring system, whereas a porphyrin is delocalised around the whole four pyrolle rings.





Biochemistry

The first type of Vitamin B12 to be isolated had a cyanide group attached to the cobalt, this was picked up during the purification of the vitamin, and is the form which is still referred to as "Vitamin B12". The commercial form of the vitamin is usually obtained as the cyanide, it metabolises easily to the coenzyme. Smokers should note that the cyanide absorbed from the smoke into the blood causes the replacement of the 5'-deoxyadenosyl group by a cyanide.

The principal coenzymatic form of Vitamin B12 is 5'-deoxyadenosylcobalamin. The notable feature of the molecule is the cobalt-carbon bond between the 5' carbon of the 5'-deoxyadenosyl moiety (the sugar part) and the cobalt of cobalamin. In Vitamin B12 as it is extracted, a cyanide replaces this sugar link, this occurs during the final purification with active charcoal. Aquocobalamin and hydroxycobalamin, with water and hydroxide are also known, as is the methylated form, methylcobalamin. A number of other cobalt-carbon bonded have been prepared synthetically, but are not known to occur in vivo

Vitamin B12 in its various forms, and in cooperation with its coenzymes and various different substrates is involved in three different forms of reaction:





several mutases in which a hydrogen and some group on an adjacent carbon exchange places,

Glutamate mutase

Methylmalonyl CoA mutase

Ornithine mutase

L-β-lysine mutase

α-methyleneglutarate mutase

This can be followed by an elimination of water or ammonia.

Dioldehydrase

Glycerol dehydrase

Ethanolamine Ammonia lyase

Ribonucleotide reductase, a reductase whereby ribose is reduced to deoxyribose.

Methyl group transfers

Methionine synthetase

Methane synthetase

Acetate synthetase

The first two reactions involve a Co(II) oxidation state intermediate, the third probably involves a Co(I), and in both in its 'resting state' the cobalt is a Co(III). Central to the catalytic rôle of is the relative weakness of the cobalt-carbon bond, with a dissociation energy of around 120 kJmol-1. In several of the rearrangements, and in the reductase, EPR signals have been observed for the deoxyadenosyl radical and for a cobalt(II) corrin.



In the hydrogen migrations in all of the Vitamin B12 coenzyme-dependent rearrangement reactions, there is no exchange of the hydrogen with water protons, and the 1,2 intramolecular shifts are stereospecific for both the hydrogen atom and the exchanging group. Different reactions also proceed with either retention or inversion of the configuration.



The mechanistic picture which emerges from this is that the rearrangement involves a kind of 'reaction in a bottle', between the Vitamin B12 and the substrate, with the large coenzyme acting as the bottle. Co(II) and free radicals are very oxygen sensitive, so that the whole process must be kept anaerobic.





Model Complexes

The simplist model for Vitamin B12 is the [MeCo(CN)5]3- ion, and an early observation was that this complex will transfer its methyl group to an Hg(II), generating the highly poisonous [MeHg+] moiety. A mercury methylation forming this highly toxic ion, and also involving methylcobalamin, and the related F430 metalloenzyme is believed to be behind the Minamata tragedy in Japan.

The principle models used for Vitamin B12 are the alkylcobalt(III)dimethylglyoxinates, so called alkylcobaloximes, which have the advantages of easy preparation and simplicity. The methyl complex photolyses readily to form ethane, and the methyl radicals can be trapped with spin-traps such as PBN. reaction with Hg(II) forms the highly toxic MeHg(II) ion, modeling what happens when Hg(II) attacks methyl Vitamin B12. Of course none of these will ever provide substitutes for Vitamin B12, but they do provide platforms on which various aspects of the mechanisms of the Vitamin B12 catalysed reactions can be studied.





Other Vitamin B12 Information

More information of the structure and component parts of vitamin B12 can be found as a Chime-enhanced page on the Oxford MOTM site.



Bibliography

There is a huge literature about Vitamin B12. Here are some key references :

G.Dodson, J.P.Glusker and D Sayre (Eds), "Structural studies on molecules of biological interest - A volume in honour of Dorothy Hodgkin", Clarendon, Oxford, 1981.

D.Dolphin (Ed), B12.Vols I and II, John Wiley, New York, 1982.

B.T.Goldring, "The B12 Mystery", Chemistry in Britain, 950-4, 1990.

J.M.Pratt, Inorganic Chemistry of Vitamin B12, Academic Press, New York, 1972.

Ei-Ichiro Ochiai, "Vitamin B12 and B12 Coenzymes", Chapter 12, Bioinorganic Chemistry, An Introduction, Allyn and Bacon, Boston, 1977

J.J.R.Frausto da Silva and R.J.P.Williams, The Biological Chemistry of the Elements, The Inorganic Chemistry of Life, Chapter 16, Nickel and Cobalt : remnants of Early Life?, Clarendon, Oxford, 1991.

G.Zubay, (Ed), Biochemistry, Macmillan, New York, 1988.

S.J.Lippard and J.M.Berg, "Principles of Bioinorganic Chemistry", p336-343 University Science Books, Mill Valley, California, 1994


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Loading...